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Ganchos

Date:    Mon, 18 May 1998 12:04:36 EDT
From:    JKarako
Subject: Ganchos


Recently I had a brief but quite open discussion with a friend about ganchos.

Without forwarding any comments I'd like to know what everyone thinks about
a) the use of ganchos - where & when (Musically & Dancefloorwise)
b) the knowledge of ganchos - ie being able to do lead/follow them
c) the place of ganchos in the Tango Vocabulary

jk
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Date:    Tue, 19 May 1998 06:17:16 -0400
From:    "Andre G. Samson"
Subject: gonchos


I'll add one more question. Does anyone know when the goncho
was first danced? I had heard Juan Carlos Copes developed
the step in the 1950's for the stage, and I wonder if anyone
can confirm that. Has anyone seen gonchos danced in historic
videos on Solo Tango?

Also does anyone know of a chronology of Tango dance steps (not
the family tree of Tango, which is graphically displayed in
"Tango" by Simon Collier)?

Thanks

Andre
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Date:    Tue, 19 May 1998 13:19:53 +0200
From:    Mark Soekarjo
Subject: Re: gonchos


At 06:17 -0400 19-05-1998, Andre G. Samson wrote:
>I'll add one more question. Does anyone know when the goncho
>was first danced? I had heard Juan Carlos Copes developed
>the step in the 1950's for the stage, and I wonder if anyone
>can confirm that. Has anyone seen gonchos danced in historic
>videos on Solo Tango?

As I heard the story:

I thought it was in the sixties, and what he did was take a man's step and
give it to the women, to make their part more attractive. Ganchos were
considered unladylike. They were abundant in certain styles of earlier
tango as a man's step.


Mark
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Date:    Tue, 19 May 1998 10:05:16 EDT
From:    JKarako
Subject: Gonchos


At 06:17 -0400 19-05-1998, Andre G. Samson wrote:
>I'll add one more question. Does anyone know when the goncho
>was first danced? I had heard Juan Carlos Copes developed
>the step in the 1950's for the stage, and I wonder if anyone
>can confirm that. Has anyone seen gonchos danced in historic
>videos on Solo Tango?

As I heard the story:

I thought it was in the sixties, and what he did was take a man's step and
give it to the women, to make their part more attractive. Ganchos were
considered unladylike. They were abundant in certain styles of earlier
tango as a man's step.


Mark

Andre / Mark ,

What is your personal sentiment about the move ?
Jak
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Date:    Tue, 19 May 1998 11:03:27 -0400
From:    Richard Lipkin
Subject: Re: Gonchos


JKarako wrote:

> At 06:17 -0400 19-05-1998, Andre G. Samson wrote:
> >I'll add one more question. Does anyone know when the goncho
> >was first danced? I had heard Juan Carlos Copes developed
> >the step in the 1950's for the stage, and I wonder if anyone
> >can confirm that. Has anyone seen gonchos danced in historic
> >videos on Solo Tango?
>
> As I heard the story:
>
> I thought it was in the sixties, and what he did was take a man's step and
> give it to the women, to make their part more attractive. Ganchos were
> considered unladylike. They were abundant in certain styles of earlier
> tango as a man's step.

In the film "Evita" there is a  glimpse of dancers in the 1940s doing
simultaneous ganchos. This is PROOF that the step is older than the 1950s. ;-)

Richard
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Date:    Tue, 19 May 1998 21:37:25 +0000
From:    "~DANCE MORE TANGO~"
Subject: GANCHOS



Hello to the list,
I am very surprised there hasn't been more response to this thread,
most people I know have a definite opinion on this subject, and it is
usually a love/hate relationship.

JKarako wrote:

> Without forwarding any comments I'd like to know what everyone thinks about
> a) the use of ganchos - where & when (Musically & Dancefloorwise)
> b) the knowledge of ganchos - ie being able to do lead/follow them
> c) the place of ganchos in the Tango Vocabulary
>
IMHO:a) The use of ganchos should be considered a stage device only, I
personally
don't care for it in salon tango, and fortunately all of the gentlemen I
dance with are familiar with my preference and respect this choice.  If
they should project a leg for a gancho I usually do a sacada or a floor
embellishment. There is only one gentleman here who I will do a gancho
with since I know he performs  this step with great precision.

b) I personally feel that most people do not know how to do ganchos
correctly, either there is a timing problem  or a size and height problem.
The other problem areas are body placement and distance from your
partner, both of which must be precise to execute a gancho well.
Unless the couple is suitably matched and are familiar with each other
the gancho that is attempted is usually haphazard.

c)I think the gancho should remain in the tango vocabulary as it is an
integral part of the history of the  dance, and should be taught, but
with great care and lots of repetition by a qualified teacher who can
give each student the individual time this step requires.

regards from florida, norma
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Date:    Wed, 20 May 1998 00:00:00 -0100
From:    Jan Dirk van Abshoven
Subject: Re: Gonchos

 > From: Mark Soekarjo

>>
>>What is your personal sentiment about the move ?
>>

 > I lead them in some types of demos

This cannot be considered a sentiment Mark!
And as a matter of fact you have lead them not only in demos (or do you
consider your dancing in salons demos too?). And besides leading them you have
also DONE them, both as follower and leader!

Which TYPES of demos were you thinking about anyway?


PS. Please note that Mark is a prominent teacher in the local tangoschool which
is burdened by the name "EL GANCHO" for nearly 10 years! The school has on TWO
occasions organized PUBLIC 'gancho contests'.



Jan Dirk
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Date:    Wed, 20 May 1998 07:38:42 +0100
From:    Manuel Patino
Subject: Re: Gonchos


At 12:00 AM 5/20/98 -0100, Jan Dirk van Abshoven wrote:
> > From: Mark Soekarjo
>
>>>
>>>What is your personal sentiment about the move ?
>>>
>
> > I lead them in some types of demos
>
>This cannot be considered a sentiment Mark!
>And as a matter of fact you have lead them not only in demos (or do you
>consider your dancing in salons demos too?). And besides leading them you
have
>also DONE them, both as follower and leader!
>
>Which TYPES of demos were you thinking about anyway?
>
>
>PS. Please note that Mark is a prominent teacher in the local tangoschool
which
>is burdened by the name "EL GANCHO" for nearly 10 years! The school has on
TWO
>occasions organized PUBLIC 'gancho contests'.
>
>
>
>Jan Dirk
>

I like ganchos, I like to see them well done and I like to lead them and do
them. Sometimes they are not an appropriate figure because of a crowded
salon or some other reason, then I dont lead them. The follower *always*
has the option of not doing a gancho when the lead is offered. These cannot
be forced by the leader. BTW, ganchos are not uncommon in the milongas in
Bs As. Like the "milonguero", style of dancing, ganchos appear to generate
a good deal of controversy in these forums. The gancho is just another
figure of Argentine tango. It is neither intrinsically wrong or obligatory.
I find it curious to see  the dancing or not dancing of ganchos used as
some sort of a lithmus test for ATCP (Argentine tango political correctness).

Manuel
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Date:    Wed, 20 May 1998 19:58:46 -0700
From:    JC Dill
Subject: Re: Gonchos


On 07:38 AM 5/20/98 +0100, Manuel Patino wrote:

>I like ganchos, I like to see them well done and I like to lead them and do
>them. Sometimes they are not an appropriate figure because of a crowded
>salon or some other reason, then I dont lead them. The follower *always*
>has the option of not doing a gancho when the lead is offered. These cannot

I would like to know more about the follower's options.  I have never been
taught any options other than doing the gancho, and it isn't uncommon here
to see a leader who has recently been in a lesson where ganchos are taught
to repeatedly try to get a beginning follower to do one, rather than go on
into another move.

How can the follower indicate to the leader that the indication to do the
gancho is clear, and is being refused, and that the leader is to move on now?

>be forced by the leader. BTW, ganchos are not uncommon in the milongas in
>Bs As. Like the "milonguero", style of dancing, ganchos appear to generate
>a good deal of controversy in these forums. The gancho is just another
>figure of Argentine tango. It is neither intrinsically wrong or obligatory.
>I find it curious to see  the dancing or not dancing of ganchos used as
>some sort of a lithmus test for ATCP (Argentine tango political correctness).

FWIW, the milongas I have recently ventured to are rarely so crowded (even
when we have a big name guest instructor that night) that a little gancho
can't be done safely.  I wish I could say the same about boleos.  I would
also like some suggestions on what the follower should do when the leader
attempts to lead a boleo when the follower doesn't feel safe swinging a
pointed heel into the unseen space behind (doesn't feel confident that the
leader has properly ascertained that the required space to do the movement
*safely* exists).

TIA

jc
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Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 07:34:10 GMT
From:    Ed Loomis
Subject: Re: Ganchos (was Gonchos)


On Wed, 20 May 1998 19:58:46 -0700, JC Dill wrote:
>
>I would like to know more about the follower's options.  I have never =
been
>taught any options other than doing the gancho, and it isn't uncommon =
here
>to see a leader who has recently been in a lesson where ganchos are =
taught
>to repeatedly try to get a beginning follower to do one, rather than go =
on
>into another move.
>
>How can the follower indicate to the leader that the indication to do =
the
>gancho is clear, and is being refused, and that the leader is to move on=
 now?

Nora Dinzelbacher teaches that it is always the lady's option to
perform an amague (cuatro) to the outside if she doesn't like the
position she is in or the lead for a gancho, or if she just feels like
it. If the lady has refused three consecutive leads to gancho in this
way and the gentleman persists, she might consider applying a large
rubber mallet to the top of his cranium. This is about communication,
right!
>
>FWIW, the milongas I have recently ventured to are rarely so crowded (even
>when we have a big name guest instructor that night) that a little gancho
>can't be done safely.  I wish I could say the same about boleos.  I would
>also like some suggestions on what the follower should do when the leader
>attempts to lead a boleo when the follower doesn't feel safe swinging a
>pointed heel into the unseen space behind (doesn't feel confident that the
>leader has properly ascertained that the required space to do the movement
>*safely* exists).
>
Boleos may be performed any where from on the floor to above the knee.
The man may lead a bigger boleo or a quicker boleo but the height is
always at the lady's discretion. If you're in a crowd, keep it low. If
he doesn't like it, ask him to stand still while you spike him in the
back of the knee.
     If my tone seems a little cynical and harsh, I apologize. There
were a couple of careening idiots in a full house crowd at the
Danceasy Saturday and they seem to have used up my patience for the
same, at least for the time being.

Ed Loomis
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Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 04:59:54 -0400
From:    Sharon Pedersen
Subject: Re: gonchos



Mark Soekarjo <soekarjo@probiblio.nl> wrote on invention of ganchos
(hooks):

> I thought it was in the sixties, and what he did was take a man's step and
> give it to the women, to make their part more attractive. Ganchos were
> considered unladylike. They were abundant in certain styles of earlier
> tango as a man's step.

I don't understand this -- take an unladylike step & have the lady
dance it, to make the lady *more* attractive?

Nito & Elba Garay teach that after a gancho, the follower always does
an amague ("woman ganchos herself") -- because the position of a
gancho is, to them, inelegant (sort of like a dog with a fire
hydrant), and the amague is elegant.

--Sharon        pedersen@bowdoin.edu
  Brunswick, Maine  USA
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Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 06:14:30 EDT
From:    LGMoseley
Subject: Re: Ganchos (Gonchos)


I think that Ganchos are just an example of the old adage: The man indicates,
the lady leads, the man follows

If we are talking about leading the lady to do a Gancho, I'm surprised at the
advice to try it 3 times, and if it doesn't work, give up. I'd try it once -
if it doesn't work, but causes no serious disruption to the flow of the dance,
I'd try it a second time later. If that doesn't work, I'd stop attempting it
with the current partner after those two attempts. If the first attempt not
only doesn't work but also causes a break in the flow, or embarrassment to
one's current partner, I'd stop after that first attempt.

As for leading it, the two elements of which I am conscious are;

a) push up on the toe of the receiving leg, thus flexing the knee and opening
up a gap for the Gancho. However, I notice that a lot of intermediates do this
and still fail to get their message through to the lady
b) so you need to add a strong shoulder turn to get the lady backing into a
position in which she can Gancho. I find that the combination of the two seems
to produce an automatic Gancho from any relatively experienced lady.

An interesting feature is that if the lady is a beginner, the combination of
the two does not produce a Gancho, but it does put her in the position to do
one. That means that if she so desires (after the current dance is over), it
is a matter of a few seconds for her to learn to adjust and to add in the
final element of the actual Gancho.

I also agree that, if the lead is not given (or read) adequately, the lady is
free to do what she wants to - I find that the Sentada flick (aka Cuatro) is a
common response to a poorly led Gancho. That's quite reasonable.

Keep your amagues to the dance floor

Laurie (Laurence)
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Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 13:24:38 -0600
From:    Tom Stermitz
Subject: Re: Gonchos


>How can the follower indicate to the leader that the indication to do the
>gancho is clear, and is being refused, and that the leader is to move on now?

Since this would only happen at a practice, you can simply stop the dance
and explain and then perhaps offer to work it through with him several
times until it is clear.

Obviously at a milonga no leader would ever teach moves, nor lead things he
didn't have total confidence in the outcome.

I know, there are many practices disquised as milongas, but that single
feature (i.e. teaching/practicing vs dancing for real) is the defining
characteristic between a practice and a milonga, irregardless of the day of
the week or the advertising of the organizer.

If your partner is unaware that practicing and teaching are inappropriate
at a milonga...hmmm, you'll have to be tactful. But imagine if someone
started teaching aerials to you at a swing dance. Wouldn't you feel like
you had no choice but to tell him to stop?

>... I would
>also like some suggestions on what the follower should do when the leader
>attempts to lead a boleo when the follower doesn't feel safe swinging a
>pointed heel into the unseen space behind (doesn't feel confident that the
>leader has properly ascertained that the required space to do the movement
>*safely* exists).

That one is easy...don't do the boleo unless you want to.

Tom Stermitz
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Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 20:56:37 -0700
From:    Philip Seyer
Subject: Leading Ganchos, smiling afterwards



Before I even knew what a Gancho was, I led one...

...by mistake, that is.  Wow was I surprised when the
follower snapped a sharp hook on my "perfectly positioned
leg."   I had a good laugh afterwards.  I had never experienced
such a thing.  I thought it was one of  those, "I could never do
that again if  I tried,"  sort of things.

Actually, I did learn from that experience and from quite a few lessons.
Now I can lead ganchos intentionally!   If the follower misses
the cue, she will usually smile and say, "Let's try
that again."

I can't help but really grin when a follower snaps
a gancho, although I understand you're supposed to look
real serious and act as though nothing has happened.
Sorry, that's not my style.
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Date:    Fri, 22 May 1998 04:09:23 -0700
From:    Jim Lane
Subject: Re: Ganchos (was Gonchos)


Ed Loomis
>Nora Dinzelbacher teaches that it is always the lady's option to
>perform an amague (cuatro) to the outside if she doesn't like the
>position she is in or the lead for a gancho, or if she just feels like
>it.

Sometime in the distant past, someone taught me that if I lead with
my leg behind my partner's, she can do either a gancho or a sentada
(a "sit", where she crosses one leg over the other in something like
a sitting position), as she chooses.  But if I lead with my leg on the
side of my partner's, she doesn't have space to do a gancho, so she
has to do a sentada.

I haven't heard Nora teach the amague option.  An amague is different
enough from a gancho that it should be an obvious statement that the
follow doesn't like ganchos, at least at the moment.  An amague is
similar enough to a sentada (just crossing her own leg lower) that
the follow could do an amague in response to a distinct sentada lead
without it being as surprising (or as informative) to the lead.

>If the lady has refused three consecutive leads to gancho

Three?!  One should be enough to be obvious.  Two at the very most.

>she might consider applying a large rubber mallet to the top of his
>cranium.

Would that be considered a back lead? :-)

>Boleos may be performed any where from on the floor to above the knee.
>The man may lead a bigger boleo or a quicker boleo but the height is
>always at the lady's discretion. If you're in a crowd, keep it low. If
>he doesn't like it, ask him to stand still while you spike him in the
>back of the knee.

I'll second that.
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Date:    Sun, 24 May 1998 15:31:49 +0200
From:    "Bjarne R. Jørgensen"
Subject: Re: Ganchos


Hi list
Sunday, a lazy feeling in the body after last nights milonga, I recuperate
with Singers Unlimited and last weeks digests from the list. Nice.
I want to tell you about the use of ganchos in my tango community. Take it
as just an example among hundreds of others, not as a prescription of any
kind.
Here we do not have many authenticity authorities to tell us what is right
and wrong. So this influences our dance. The first teachers that came here
taught us ganchos, so we ourselves continue to teach ganchos in our
classes, at a relatively early stage.
Last nights milonga was fairly filled with ganchos. The floor was big and
there was plenty of room for the ganchos, so no one got hurt in any way.
Some ganchos were beautiful to watch, others were, to be honest, quite
dreadful.
This is only natural, since some dancers are less experienced than others,
and their movements, be they ganchos or any other, have not been
perfectioned.
So I must say that the gancho is alive and kicking around here.
We have had milongas in more crowded places, and some dancers have been hit
by ganchos, but never more than they could continue to dance after a small
break. This is sad though, so we always try to find places for milongas
with enough room for ganchos. The dancers here also request that kind of
space.
Yesterday, I personally did perhaps 8 ganchos when dancing with familiar
partners, and I led 2 ganchos for my regular dance partner to do, and none
with all the other persons I danced with. Normally I try to avoid ganchos
in milongas, but, you know, in the heat of the moment... We just had so
much fun and it seemed an ok thing to do at that time and place.
I am aware, that to leed a woman into a gancho can intimidate her, if she
is not sure, that it is safe to do the gancho. The ganco can surely be an
element with a high intimidation risk. But when I look at the community
around here, I do not think it is that big a problem. I do not think many
women get intimidated.
Most, if not all, of the dancers around here are very reasonable and decent
human beings. They know how to behave. The ones with little experience of
course make faults now and then, but they are most often forgiven by their
partners.
Experienced dancers, who are familiar with each other, do ganchos and have
fun. If they do not know each other, they take more care, but still do some
ganchos, and they get to know each other.
This is how things fonction in Aarhus, Denmark. As I said, it is just an
example. Maybe in other places the crowds are bigger, the rooms are
smaller, or the ideas in peoples heads are different.
I must admit, that I have been intimidated several times by women, I danced
with. Well, I just do not dance with them any more. But I still take the
chance and dance with new faces, that show up.
Take the chance and dance!
Regards
Bjarne

Bjarne Refsgaard Jørgensen
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Date:    Sun, 24 May 1998 13:35:04 -0400
From:    Sharon Pedersen
Subject: Re: Ganchos


Hi list,
  Tom Stermitz & I had the following off-list conversation, which with
his permission I now forward on-list.  I've tried to clearly identify
who said what...        --Sharon

I am:
Sharon Pedersen
pedersen@bowdoin.edu
Brunswick, Maine  USA
http://www.bowdoin.edu/~pedersen/tango/

Tom is:
Tom Stermitz
Chautauqua Publishing / Ragtime Interiors
"On-Line Arts & Crafts Movement Resource Directory."
(303) 444 - 9667

http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime/
http://www.tango.org/dance/

SHARON:
>> >Nito & Elba Garay teach that after a gancho, the follower always does
>> >an amague ("woman ganchos herself") -- because the position of a
>> >gancho is, to them, inelegant (sort of like a dog with a fire
>> >hydrant), and the amague is elegant.

TOM:
>> I don't agree with Nito on this one. You have several options following the
>> gancho, but the usual one is to step. Most followers do that amague far too
>> slowly so they lose the rhythm of the dance.

SHARON:
>Me personally, I don't find a gancho inelegant (yet?) as a follower, so
>I'm content to just gancho the leader and continue in the timing allowed
>by the leader.  (I think -- whether my body actually cooperates in
>following as perfectly as my mind & heart would like to, I dunno!)

TOM:
I rarely do ganchos. And then, only in fantasy play, not a normal tango.

SHARON:
>But perhaps if the *leader* also thought the gancho-alone was inelegant
>for the follower, then the leader would allow the follower some extra
>time to complete the amague?  A very subtle arrangement -- the leader
>would need to feel if they had a slow-amague or fast-amague follower,
>and compensate -- it would be unpleasant (to the follower) to be rushed
>out of the gancho-amague, but also unpleasant to be left waiting.  Or
>maybe the leader would lead the gancho-amague in practice, but wouldn't
>lead it much at a milonga unless they were dancing with a follower who
>could do it fast enough?

TOM:
Well, this is the key. A lot of women go to San Francisco and learn to
do
these from Nora. Then they automatically do them all the time, but they
haven't learned to execute them properly.

You are right, you have to have a leader who permits you the time, and
yes
it should be a conversation. I usually am a bit too demanding and when I
want to go fast, I don't want my follower tripping me...but I could
learn
to be a little more sensitive.

SHARON:
>A challenge for the follower of course is to practice doing the amague
>fast enough to fit into the decisive timing of a gancho (going with the
>idea that it's decisive bandoneon music that "asks for" ganchos, and
>hence asks for *not* dilly-dallying about letting the follower make
>languid amagues).  I certainly can't do them fast enough yet -- but I
>could start by practicing a tiny flick at my ankle in a teeny-tiny
>amague:  a minuscule gesture indicating "I'm aware of lady-like bringing
>my knees together, and I can do it with the subtlest of gestures and the
>greatest of speed."

>Something that struck me in the Garay's teaching & style is that "knees
>together" is to be striven for -- even when doing a "lunge", you pull
>your knees & thighs towards each other -- as if there's a magnetic force
>between them, even if they're not actually touching, they're heading for
>each other (my language, not theirs).

TOM:
Knees together, knees together, KNEES TOGETHER! Always, Always, Always.
This is a VERY lady-like dance. Bow-legged is really ugly!

SHARON:
>Slightly unrelated:  Paul Spielman has pictures of the Bs.As. trip,
>including one of you & me dancing together -- in which I can see clearly
>why I was so clumsy:  I wasn't standing up straight (my whole upper body
>was slumping).  So I hope someday we get a chance to dance together
>again and I can follow as well in reality as I dream of in fantasy.
top of page 
Date:    Sun, 24 May 1998 20:00:37 GMT
From:    Ed Loomis
Subject: Re: Ganchos


On Sun, 24 May 1998 13:35:04 -0400, Sharon Pedersen wrote:

>Hi list,
>  Tom Stermitz & I had the following off-list conversation, which with
>his permission I now forward on-list.  I've tried to clearly identify
>who said what...        --Sharon
>
>I am:
>Sharon Pedersen

>Brunswick, Maine  USA
>
>Tom is:
>Tom Stermitz
>(303) 444 - 9667

(snip, discussion on amagues, cuatros, sentadas, etc. with ganchos)
>
>TOM:
>Well, this is the key. A lot of women go to San Francisco and learn to
>do these from Nora. Then they automatically do them all the time, but they
>haven't learned to execute them properly.

This is probably true, but Nora constantly emphasizes that the lady
must keep the rhythm and execute the embellishments between the steps.
I have also heard Nora, on many occasions, admonish the ladies and the
men to use their adornos sparingly and for musical effect without
being repetitious or predictable.  =20
>
>You are right, you have to have a leader who permits you the time, and
>yes it should be a conversation. I usually am a bit too demanding and when I
>want to go fast, I don't want my follower tripping me...but I could learn to
>be a little more sensitive.

This is a good point in that it needs to go both ways. The man is, by
convention, responsible for leading the size and tempo of the figures
in the dance. These features of the man's lead should be rooted in the
music being danced to. Since both the lady and the man are, hopefully,
listening to the same music as they dance, changes in tempo and
intensity should not catch the lady completely unawares. The man is
also responsible for showing off his lady and providing her with
opportunities to shine. Many pleasant surprises await the man who will
give a filly her head and let her run from time to time (An equestrian
metaphor. For those humorless, binary thinkers on the list who don't
like men anyway. Go ahead, flame me.).
>
>SHARON:
>>A challenge for the follower of course is to practice doing the amague
>>fast enough to fit into the decisive timing of a gancho (going with the
>>idea that it's decisive bandoneon music that "asks for" ganchos, and
>>hence asks for *not* dilly-dallying about letting the follower make
>>languid amagues).  I certainly can't do them fast enough yet -- but I
>>could start by practicing a tiny flick at my ankle in a teeny-tiny
>>amague:  a minuscule gesture indicating "I'm aware of lady-like bringing
>>my knees together, and I can do it with the subtlest of gestures and the
>>greatest of speed."
Excellent advice. Speed, poise, and confidence will grow together.
>
>TOM:
>Knees together, knees together, KNEES TOGETHER! Always, Always, Always.
>This is a VERY lady-like dance. Bow-legged is really ugly!
Well said. Please add to your list of uglies, the "pigeon toed tush
push", and the "foot suspended in air statue" poses.
>

Ed Loomis
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Date:    Sun, 24 May 1998 20:53:33 +0100
From:    Daniel M Iannarelli
Subject: Re: Gonchos

In message , Richard Lipkin  writes
>In the film "Evita" there is a  glimpse of dancers in the 1940s doing
>simultaneous ganchos. This is PROOF that the step is older than the 1950s. ;-)
>
>Richard
>
If you're being sarcastic, Richard, then...HA! HA!

However, if you're serious, then I think the word 'naiivete' is very
applicable.

The film "Evita" was made in 1996/97...and NOT in the 1940's. Just
because a film depicts something at any particular time - it is BY NO
MEANS necessarily indicative of historical accuracy.

Anyway, WHO CARES(!) when the gancho was developed, discovered,
described, danced, dribbled or even dumped! Isn't there anything else
more sensible to discuss?
--
Daniel M Iannarelli
Edinburgh, Scotland
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Date:    Mon, 25 May 1998 10:19:31 +0200
From:    Alexis Cousein
Subject: Re: Gonchos



JC Dill wrote:
FWIW, the milongas I have recently ventured to are rarely so crowded (even
> when we have a big name guest instructor that night) that a little gancho
> can't be done safely.  I wish I could say the same about boleos.

You can say that about boleos too. As I said recently, it's possible to do a
*very* energetical boleo without lifting the foot, and even without
disconnecting the two feet at all; the latter consumes zero floorspace, and
is *perfectly* safe. Anyone who's seen Birkit from Arnhem do one of these
will undoubedtly agree :).

It's only when followers have been taught the boleo is a movement of the
foot that has to be seen from kilometers around that you run into problems
-- not if the follower knows that it's a movement where the hip movement is
central, and that you can do your own private boleos that feel just as good
without any danger of hurting people.

-- OK, I'll make an exception: sometimes I have tended to lead boleos with
such energy that most followers feel a huge boleo is the right thing, and we
do end up wounding couples :\, and I'll admit it's at least partly my fault.
I'm trying to lead only subtle boleos on crowded floors now, and it's only
when the DJ plys Piazolla that I'm tempted to sin again ;).

--
Alexis Cousein
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ate:    Mon, 25 May 1998 11:38:30 -0500
From:    "Stephen P. Brown"
Subject: Re[2]: Ganchos



     In his conversation with Sharon Pedersen about Ganchos , Tom Stermitz
     wrote:

     >A lot of women go to San Francisco and learn to do these from Nora.
     >Then they automatically do them all the time, but they haven't
     >learned to execute them properly.

     I am somewhat amazed by this gratituitous comment.  My partner, Susan,
     and I have visited the Bay Area and have taken group and private
     lessons from Nora.  I have also brought her to Dallas for a workshop.
     I can report that she does teach ganchos, but only as a small part of
     what she teaches.  I have *never* seen her teach ganchos as an
     automatic response for the follower.  I have seen teach the leader how
     to properly mark a gancho and instruct the follower to wait for a
     proper marking.

     Even offered in private, I think that Tom's comments are an
     irresponsible second-handed criticism of a very good teacher who is
     not present on Tango-L.

     By the way, Nito & Elba's last name is Garcia.

     --Steve (de Tejas)
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Date:    Mon, 25 May 1998 22:54:31 +0200
From:    Mark Soekarjo
Subject: Re: Gonchos

At 00:00 -0100 20-05-1998, Jan Dirk van Abshoven wrote:

>And besides leading them you have
>also DONE them, both as follower and leader!

Probably dancing with your gorgeous girl friend again ...
(have you noticed: this guy is really keeping an eye on me)
But of course you're right. I do love to trash from time to time and fool
around.

>PS. Please note that Mark is a prominent teacher in the local tangoschool
>which
>is burdened by the name "EL GANCHO" for nearly 10 years! The school has on TWO
>occasions organized PUBLIC 'gancho contests'.

Maybe we'll burden you with yet a third version at our 10th anniversary
Birthday Party, on Dec 27th.
This will be *the* opportunity to show off your Ultimate Gancho.
At previous editions categories have included:

Stylish
Correct
Devious
Sensual
Just Missed
My First Gancho
Jan Dirk as he used to dance
Raunchy
Lethal

! Preparense !  Massive partying ahead.
2 live bands, lots of demos, lots of DJs, surprise acts and a great wooden
floor.
*You* may want to consider spending the Xmas holidays in The Netherlands
this year.

Dejate **enganchar** por la onda.
EL GANCHO is proud to have HOOKED a great many people over the years.
A lot of happy victims got hooked not only by the dance virus, but also by
the social aspects of tango.

cheers

Mark
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Date:    Tue, 26 May 1998 13:49:18 -0600
From:    Tom Stermitz
Subject: Re[2]: Ganchos



>     In his conversation with Sharon Pedersen about Ganchos , Tom Stermitz
>     wrote:
>
>     >A lot of women go to San Francisco and learn to do these from Nora.
>     >Then they automatically do them all the time, but they haven't
>     >learned to execute them properly.
>
>     I am somewhat amazed by this gratituitous comment.  My partner, Susan,
>     and I have visited the Bay Area and have taken group and private
>     lessons from Nora.  I have also brought her to Dallas for a workshop.
>     I can report that she does teach ganchos, but only as a small part of
>     what she teaches.  I have *never* seen her teach ganchos as an
>     automatic response for the follower.  I have seen teach the leader how
>     to properly mark a gancho and instruct the follower to wait for a
>     proper marking.

Whoops, you've quoted me out of context. The discussion was regarding
frequency, speed and timing of the amague decoration.

Full context here:

SHARON:
>> >Nito & Elba Garay teach that after a gancho, the follower always does
>> >an amague ("woman ganchos herself") -- because the position of a
>> >gancho is, to them, inelegant (sort of like a dog with a fire
>> >hydrant), and the amague is elegant.

TOM:
>> I don't agree with Nito on this one. You have several options following the
>> gancho, but the usual one is to step. Most followers do that amague far too
>> slowly so they lose the rhythm of the dance.

and later on:

SHARON:
>A challenge for the follower of course is to practice doing the amague
>fast enough to fit into the decisive timing of a gancho (going with the
>idea that it's decisive bandoneon music that "asks for" ganchos, and
>hence asks for *not* dilly-dallying about letting the follower make
>languid amagues).  I certainly can't do them fast enough yet -- but I
>could start by practicing a tiny flick at my ankle in a teeny-tiny
>amague:  a minuscule gesture indicating "I'm aware of lady-like bringing
>my knees together, and I can do it with the subtlest of gestures and the
>greatest of speed."

So you see, the issue wasn't ganchos, unless you share Sharon's terminology
of a "self-gancho". We were talking about the follower decoration which
comes after the gancho (also the back boleo), which Nito Garcia calls the
amague.

No criticism of Nora was intended. I have seen her teach and I have no
criticism of her.

Sharon spoke of Nito teaching this decoration as an automatic gesture. I
have noticed that some followers upon their return from classes with Nora
during Tango Week repeatedly trying to fit in amagues. If Nora does teach
this as an automatic gesture as Sharon reports about Nito, who is also a
good teacher, then I retain the right to disagree with her on this point.

In fact students often do not pick up all the necessary details no matter
how good the teacher, and learning something once in a workshop may not
carry over into practice.

>     Even offered in private, I think that Tom's comments are an
>     irresponsible second-handed criticism of a very good teacher who is
>     not present on Tango-L.
>
>     By the way, Nito & Elba's last name is Garcia.
>
>     --Steve (de Tejas)
>
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Date:    Tue, 26 May 1998 18:00:26 -0500
From:    "Stephen P. Brown"
Subject: Re[3]: Ganchos



Tom wrote:

>Whoops, you've quoted me out of context. The discussion was regarding
>frequency, speed and timing of the amague decoration.

I'm sorry I missed the context.  As the subject heading was "gancho," I
interpreted your comments about automatic as applying to the gancho, as
well as the amague that could follow.  Of course, any automatic gesture
takes away from iprovisation and the ability to navigate on the social
dance floor.

>No criticism of Nora was intended. I have seen her teach and I have no
>criticism of her.

I am glad to hear that.  :-)

>Sharon spoke of Nito teaching this decoration as an automatic gesture.

As I recall, Nito teaches a lead for these decorations--even if he
believes the decorations are necessary.  In fact, dancing with Elba, I
found she did not execute these "automatic" decorations unless I led
them.

>I have noticed that some followers upon their return from classes with
>Nora during Tango Week repeatedly trying to fit in amagues. If Nora does
>teach this as an automatic gesture as Sharon reports about Nito, who is
>also a good teacher, then I retain the right to disagree with her on
>this point.

While you may have the right to disagree with someone's approach to
teaching, how can you disagree if you do not even know what or how the
person teaches?  As someone who has taken classes, private lessons and
workshops from Nora, I would be surprised that she intended any steps or
decorations to be executed automatically.

>In fact students often do not pick up all the necessary details no matter
>how good the teacher, and learning something once in a workshop may not
>carry over into practice.

I am not surprised that some students could come back from a weekend
workshop, Tango Week, or trip to Buenos Aires can execute what they just
learned in a only in poor and somewhat automatic fashion.  There is a lot
between one's first exposure to a step and its eventual mastery.  There is
effort.  As Michael Walker likes to say, "Repeat it 500 times so you can
own it."  Even the very best teachers cannot supply this effort for their
students.

--Steve (de Tejas)
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Date:    Tue, 26 May 1998 19:45:11 -0700
From:    JC Dill
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Ganchos


On 11:38 AM 5/25/98 -0500, Stephen P. Brown wrote:
>     In his conversation with Sharon Pedersen about Ganchos , Tom Stermitz
>     wrote:
>
>     >A lot of women go to San Francisco and learn to do these from Nora.
>     >Then they automatically do them all the time, but they haven't
>     >learned to execute them properly.
>
>     I am somewhat amazed by this gratituitous comment.

I read it quite differently from you.  I read it as:

        "A lot of women go to to San Francisco *to* learn to do these (meaning to
learn specifically how to do embellishments, including ganchos) from Nora."

Nora is known for teaching many beautiful follower's embellishments.  Many
women come to SF specifically to take private lessons from Nora that are
focused on learning follower's embellishments.

In that atmosphere, they spend an hour or more doing nothing else but
embellishing every step they can.  At the end of the lesson they have
learned some new embellishments, and learned how to fit them in almost
everywhere.  Then, as is often the case, many of them over do it when going
out dancing.  This is typical whenever you learn anything new, you go
overboard before you find the right balance.

>       My partner, Susan,
>     and I have visited the Bay Area and have taken group and private
>     lessons from Nora.  I have also brought her to Dallas for a workshop.
>     I can report that she does teach ganchos, but only as a small part of
>     what she teaches.  I have *never* seen her teach ganchos as an
>     automatic response for the follower.  I have seen teach the leader how
>     to properly mark a gancho and instruct the follower to wait for a
>     proper marking.

Yes, that is how she teaches in a group class or workshop situation, where
she is teaching a variety of things including new moves for the leaders to
lead.

>     Even offered in private, I think that Tom's comments are an
>     irresponsible second-handed criticism of a very good teacher who is
>     not present on Tango-L.

Only if you take it to *be* criticism of Nora.  I don't think that was how
it was meant, and it certainly wasn't how I received it.  It was (in the
second sentence) a gentle criticism of some followers for not being aware
(yet) of the pacing of embellishments after learning them (and learning to
do them frequently in practice) in a focused private lesson situation.

jc
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Garrit Fleischmann May.98
Email: kontakt(at)cyber-tango.com