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Estimating dance-scenes
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:36:07 +0200 From: Michael Cysouw Subject: estimating dance-scenes Enrico wrote: >Buenos Aires has 10 million habitants, I am not aware of any market >research that studied how many of them dance tango, but tango is part >of their elementary school education..... Hmmm: literally speaking it is mostly *not* part of their elementary school education. It is though part of the local tradition, which causes most people have some acquintance with tango: to the music, to the poetry, or to any other part of the culture that is felt to belong to the large complex called 'tango'. The danceform belonging to this cultural complex is probably the lest widely known aspect in BA. Everybody knows that it is a dance, a lot of older people will have danced it long ago, a few of the older people still dance it, and the last ten years a new generation of dancers is arising. My feeling about the new dancers in BA is that they have to learn tango just as we have to in Europe. It's not in their blood, they have to work and practice as well. >Just to stick to BA (these are the hard numbers I have), there are >6.5 million >in BA who receive cable television, and can watch "Solo Tango", the 24 hors >tango only channel. The average ratings are 1-2% for this channel during any >day, which means that several tens of thousands of portenos/portenas choose to >watch tango over the other 79 available cable channels at any time of the day. I will not bother you to long with my opinion about the level of dancing on 'solo tango'. To shortcut: I think they are substituting quality with quantity. >Our tango community in Tampa, Florida, is about 50-80, Victor, our teacher, >dreams of when it will reach the number of 200.... The Netherlands have about 15 milion inhabitants, in roughly the same area as the larger urban Rio de la Plata region. There are 22 weekly practicas, and this november there are 30 milongas, two of them with live music. Other figures a bit more problematic, but I estimate the amount of halve-year courses currently taught somewhere around the country about 70, with a mean praticipation of =B115 persons. On top of that there are this november 8 special-occasion workshops. It is very hard to estimate the amount of active dancers, let's say defined as people who dance at least once a month, but it will be somewhere in the order 3 (meaning between 1,000 and 10,000). I don't think that the *active* dance community in Buenos Aires is much bigger. Two danceshows about tango (although both are *not* the traditional kind of tango-'for export'-show) made by dutch tango dancers are currently touring the country. And then there is of course the rest of Western Europe: Germany, Belgium, France, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Great Brittain: All these countries have an active tango community, all within easy reach in an area not even as big as Argentina, but much much denser inhabited. Tango is showen regularly in the media: television documentaries, newspaper articles, magazines with special issues about tango etc. Local teachers give low-level performances to show tango to those people who still seem to have missed the massive activity going on. I hope to have convinved you that the dance community in Western Europe is quite comparable to the Argentinean, in numbers as well as in impact. Of course the larger cultural tango-complex does not exist here, but I doubt whether that has any influence on the knowledgablity and proficiency of the *dance* scene. I even suspect that because of the implicit knowledge the larger part of the people in Buenos Aires have of tango, they will think to know something about the dance as well without ever making some effort to see whether they are right. They often aren't: Just take the popularity of Ricardo and Nicole as an examplar. bye Michael Cysouw Nijmegen, Holland PS. Thanks to 'La Cadena' and his hard working editor JDvA for some of the figures.top of page
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 02:07:13 UT From: Enrico Massetti Subject: Re: estimating dance-scenes Enrico wrote: (in Buenos Aires) tango is part of their elementary school education..... Michael wrote: Hmmm: literally speaking it is mostly *not* part of their elementary school education. It is though part of the local tradition, which causes most people have some acquintance with tango: to the music, to the poetry, or to any other part of the culture that is felt to belong to the large complex called 'tango'. Michael, you caught me "pushing the envelope", but I guarantee you that now they have some (experimental) program in which they teach tango in school to elementary school kids. It was on the news on, guess where, "Solo Tango", it was cute to see these 8-10 years old kids doing walks and ochos with their partners! Michael: My feeling about the new dancers in BA is that they have to learn tango just as we have to in Europe. It's not in their blood, they have to work and practice as well. Thanks God! The Argentinean gentleman doing back ochos with me in the class in BA was not better than I was! Michael: I will not bother you to long with my opinion about the level of dancing on 'solo tango'. To shortcut: I think they are substituting quality with quantity. Perhaps it's not so easy to fill a 24-hours format with "solo tango" when the best dancers prefer to be paid to perform in shows, or to teach instead of "giving away" their dancing on TV....? I can assure you that it is much better than the once-a-year ballroom-tango competition I can see on my US public television station! Michael: (In the Netherlands) There are 22 weekly practicas, and this november there are 30 milongas, two of them with live music. .... It is very hard to estimate the amount of active dancers, let's say defined as people who dance at least once a month, but it will be somewhere in the order 3 (meaning between 1,000 and 10,000). WHOW! When did all this start? I've been away from the old continent for only 15 years, but I regurarly visited, usually once every two months, and I did not notice it was happening! Now I just need somebody from Milan, my home town, to tell me that there is a lot of tango also there, and then I really will feel I am now an "emigrant", i.e. somebody who is not completely settled in his new home, and doesn't have the old home to go back to, because it has changed behond recognition in the meantime! The producer of Forever tango (I forgot his name) wrote that tango comes not from the "immigrants", but from the "emigrants", perhaps this is the reason why I got involved in it! Michael: I hope to have convinved you that the dance community in Western Europe is quite comparable to the Argentinean, in numbers as well as in impact. Impressive!!! Can anybody try to come up with some numbers for Germany and Italy, I'm very curious? They don't need to be fully accurate, a good approximation will be enough. bye Michael Cysouw Nijmegen, Holland Ciao Enrico PS. Thanks to 'La Cadena' and his hard working editor JDvA for some of the figures. PS thanks to the company I work for, for the viewing audience numbers of "Solo Tango", and other demographic data of Buenos Aires, we measure television audience in BA, these numbers are pretty accurate, as they are the result of multi-million dollars investments over several years.top of page
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:27:05 -0500 From: Subject: Re: estimating dance-scenes > Enrico Massetti asked: Can anybody try to come up with some numbers for > Germany and Italy, I'm very curious? They don't need to be fully > accurate, a good approximation will be enough. I really don't know about Italy, but a cursory count of weekly milongas in Germany came up with 110. There aught to be 20 more in Austria and Switzerland. In German cities like Berlin, Bremen, Hamburg, Munich or Stuttgart you can visit a local milonga every night of the week. If you can read some German, try and see http://www.tangoplaza.com for more information. Ciao Christiantop of page
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 04:21:35 +0100 From: Garrit Fleischmann Subject: Re: estimating dance-scenes Enrico wrote: -------------- Just to stick to BA (these are the hard numbers I have), there are 6.5 million in BA who receive cable television, and can watch "Solo Tango", the 24 hors tango only channel. The average ratings are 1-2% for this channel during any day, which means that several tens of thousands of portenos/portenas choose to watch tango over the other 79 available cable channels at any time of the day. Our tango community in Tampa, Florida, is about 50-80, Victor, our teacher, dreams of when it will reach the number of 200.... -------------------------- Michael wrote: ------------------- I will not bother you to long with my opinion about the level of dancing on 'solo tango'. To shortcut: I think they are substituting quality with quantity. [...] The Netherlands have about 15 milion inhabitants, in roughly the same area as the larger urban Rio de la Plata region. There are 22 weekly practicas, and this november there are 30 milongas, two of them with live music. Other figures a bit more problematic, but I estimate the amount of halve-year courses currently taught somewhere around the country about 70, with a mean praticipation of =B115 persons. On top of that there are this november 8 special-occasion workshops. It is very hard to estimate the amount of active dancers, let's say defined as people who dance at least once a month, but it will be somewhere in the order 3 (meaning between 1,000 and 10,000). I don't think that the *active* dance community in Buenos Aires is much bigger. Two danceshows about tango (although both are *not* the traditional kind of tango-'for export'-show) made by dutch tango dancers are currently touring the country. And then there is of course the rest of Western Europe: Germany, Belgium, France, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Great Brittain: All these countries have an active tango community, all within easy reach in an area not even as big as Argentina, but much much denser inhabited. ----------------------- Germany has 80 million inhabitants. I know that Stuttgart, Bremen and Berlin there are Milongas at every day of the week, and in a lot of other cities there are weekly milongas. Here in Frankfurt and the Rhein-Main area, there are 2 weekly Milongas and a couple which are every 2 weeks. I would estimate that there are about 500 active dancers (who go out dancing more or less regularly). But there is a hard core of dancers of about 100 who go dancing at least once a week. A lot of these 'Tango addicts' (like me) travel to other cities like Karlsruhe, Kaiserslautern, Marburg (which are roughly in a 120km radius) to go to a Milonga quite often, and to special occasions much further (I am calling them 'Tango tourists'). And I know that in other german towns, it's similar, since they also come to our Milongas. And by the way, lots of germans go dancing in the Netherlands too, especialy in 'El Corte' in Nijmegen (where Michael is coming from :-) ) Well, back to estimating: I know from friends that in Berlin there are about 15 teachers who give regular classes, and about another 15 who do workshops. They estimated that only in Berlin, ther must be about 2000 people taking classes, and perhaps 3000-4000 people who dance on a more or less regular basis. I would guess that the average tango community (apart from Berlin) has about 200 regular dancers and that there are a minimum of 50 AT communities, we get 10000 plus Berlin, so in total a minimum of about 13.000-15.000 regular dancers in Germany, probably much more, and I would guess about a 10th are really addicted 'Tango tourists'. I know that these are rough estimations, perhaps someone else has a better idea of the real numbers... The nice thing here is, that because of the dense population, you easyly get in contact with dancers of other AT communities... Enjoy dancing Garrit Fleischmanntop of page
Garrit Fleischmann Nov.97
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